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	<title>Comments on: My EULA Crisis</title>
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	<link>http://legalgeekery.com/2009/05/17/my-eula-crisis/</link>
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		<title>By: Joshua Auriemma</title>
		<link>http://legalgeekery.com/2009/05/17/my-eula-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2349</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Auriemma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 02:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalgeekery.com/?p=1414#comment-2349</guid>
		<description>Takings is an interesting point that I hadn&#039;t thought about;  I&#039;ll have to ponder that.  As to the part about developers being afraid of people gaming the system: wouldn&#039;t a reasonable compromise be to make users agree that if they break the game rules, they forfeit right in their virtual property?  Why do I have to buy the argument that they need absolute right in all virtual property in order to run their game to balance out the relatively small percentage of cases where that may be the case? 

There are also other ways to control the economy rather than taking things away from people.  For instance, World of Warcraft essentially taxes sale of goods in-game now where it never did before.  There&#039;s a perfectly reasonable way to limit the input of gold into the world without taking anything away from the users.  

As to the notion of goods being only worth their economic value, I&#039;d say not only is that not necessarily true in real life, but it&#039;s less true in an MMO.  A crazy powerful sword can still be used for killing stuff even if it&#039;s not worth any gold or even trades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Takings is an interesting point that I hadn&#8217;t thought about;  I&#8217;ll have to ponder that.  As to the part about developers being afraid of people gaming the system: wouldn&#8217;t a reasonable compromise be to make users agree that if they break the game rules, they forfeit right in their virtual property?  Why do I have to buy the argument that they need absolute right in all virtual property in order to run their game to balance out the relatively small percentage of cases where that may be the case? </p>
<p>There are also other ways to control the economy rather than taking things away from people.  For instance, World of Warcraft essentially taxes sale of goods in-game now where it never did before.  There&#8217;s a perfectly reasonable way to limit the input of gold into the world without taking anything away from the users.  </p>
<p>As to the notion of goods being only worth their economic value, I&#8217;d say not only is that not necessarily true in real life, but it&#8217;s less true in an MMO.  A crazy powerful sword can still be used for killing stuff even if it&#8217;s not worth any gold or even trades.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke</title>
		<link>http://legalgeekery.com/2009/05/17/my-eula-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2348</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 01:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalgeekery.com/?p=1414#comment-2348</guid>
		<description>(1) the U.S. is fairly reverent of individual property rights but it still allows exceptions (albeit limited) for the public interest (eminent domain, necessity, etc., and of course illicit property - drugs, weapons, etc); as to value, isn&#039;t that a pretty important aspect of &#039;stuff&#039;? a monetary policy that leads to hyperinflation could have an indistinguishable effect on someone with a pile of cash. I would guess the risk of user-actions that disrupt the economy is more prominent in the MMO counsel&#039;s fears. In other words, they might anticipate the necessity of acting to protect the interests of the common user against someone able to &#039;game the system&#039;. Users might also have an interest in an environment with that kind of oversight. The market then becomes the level of trust which an environment can engender in prospective users to balance those potentially competing ends - protecting the investment users make vs. seizing control to &#039;protect&#039; the market. Why wouldn&#039;t we contractually allow for that commitment from both ends? I suppose disclosure is where the rubber meets the road.

(2) it&#039;s tempting to extend the &#039;virtual&#039; analogy to treat the MMO as a contractual &#039;sovereign&#039; able to impose whatever terms it likes on willing participants. Why burden the creators with &#039;real-world&#039; contractual limitations?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(1) the U.S. is fairly reverent of individual property rights but it still allows exceptions (albeit limited) for the public interest (eminent domain, necessity, etc., and of course illicit property &#8211; drugs, weapons, etc); as to value, isn&#8217;t that a pretty important aspect of &#8216;stuff&#8217;? a monetary policy that leads to hyperinflation could have an indistinguishable effect on someone with a pile of cash. I would guess the risk of user-actions that disrupt the economy is more prominent in the MMO counsel&#8217;s fears. In other words, they might anticipate the necessity of acting to protect the interests of the common user against someone able to &#8216;game the system&#8217;. Users might also have an interest in an environment with that kind of oversight. The market then becomes the level of trust which an environment can engender in prospective users to balance those potentially competing ends &#8211; protecting the investment users make vs. seizing control to &#8216;protect&#8217; the market. Why wouldn&#8217;t we contractually allow for that commitment from both ends? I suppose disclosure is where the rubber meets the road.</p>
<p>(2) it&#8217;s tempting to extend the &#8216;virtual&#8217; analogy to treat the MMO as a contractual &#8216;sovereign&#8217; able to impose whatever terms it likes on willing participants. Why burden the creators with &#8216;real-world&#8217; contractual limitations?</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Auriemma</title>
		<link>http://legalgeekery.com/2009/05/17/my-eula-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2340</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Auriemma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 05:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalgeekery.com/?p=1414#comment-2340</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m late to the party on this comment -- sorry about that.  

As to (1), the government doesn&#039;t come into my house and take my stuff away.  They may do things behind the scenes which values or devalues my stuff, but to my knowledge they can&#039;t walk into my house and take my stuff or my money away, which is essentially what these companies want. 

As to (2), could you elaborate a bit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m late to the party on this comment &#8212; sorry about that.  </p>
<p>As to (1), the government doesn&#8217;t come into my house and take my stuff away.  They may do things behind the scenes which values or devalues my stuff, but to my knowledge they can&#8217;t walk into my house and take my stuff or my money away, which is essentially what these companies want. </p>
<p>As to (2), could you elaborate a bit?</p>
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		<title>By: Luke</title>
		<link>http://legalgeekery.com/2009/05/17/my-eula-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2307</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 02:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalgeekery.com/?p=1414#comment-2307</guid>
		<description>Very interesting. This isn&#039;t something I&#039;ve given a lot of thought to, so pardon my naivete, but I wonder (1) why we should assume that the U.S. govt doesn&#039;t currently deprive some owners of their property rights (or at least of its value) in order to &quot;tweak the economy&quot; - particularly given the current intervention. Maybe these MMOs are just being true to life? (2) also whether the more appropriate analogy is contract or sovereignty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting. This isn&#8217;t something I&#8217;ve given a lot of thought to, so pardon my naivete, but I wonder (1) why we should assume that the U.S. govt doesn&#8217;t currently deprive some owners of their property rights (or at least of its value) in order to &#8220;tweak the economy&#8221; &#8211; particularly given the current intervention. Maybe these MMOs are just being true to life? (2) also whether the more appropriate analogy is contract or sovereignty?</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://legalgeekery.com/2009/05/17/my-eula-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2300</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 18:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalgeekery.com/?p=1414#comment-2300</guid>
		<description>Interesting.  I can see the venue, forum and arbitration clauses being questioned--those are always targets.

If I were to question a EULA such as in these MMO&#039;s you refer to, I&#039;d look into anti-restitution and rescission clauses.  These companies must be getting more than just subscription fees out of this arrangement and I&#039;d argue that collection of usage data and habit profiling is additional consideration to the agreement which has value and can be sued upon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting.  I can see the venue, forum and arbitration clauses being questioned&#8211;those are always targets.</p>
<p>If I were to question a EULA such as in these MMO&#8217;s you refer to, I&#8217;d look into anti-restitution and rescission clauses.  These companies must be getting more than just subscription fees out of this arrangement and I&#8217;d argue that collection of usage data and habit profiling is additional consideration to the agreement which has value and can be sued upon.</p>
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		<title>By: Joshua Auriemma</title>
		<link>http://legalgeekery.com/2009/05/17/my-eula-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2299</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Auriemma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 18:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalgeekery.com/?p=1414#comment-2299</guid>
		<description>Well, to give you one brief example, the Bragg case was discussed at the conference (and also within my Comment).  In Bragg, the court found that the compelled arbitration clause from the Second Life EULA was unconscionable (even though a lawyer brought the suit!).  This is the only relevant case that I&#039;m aware of so far, but it definitely has the EULA attorneys on their feet.  

Other questionable terms include forum selection clauses, choice of venue/law clauses, and unilateral rights to cancel accounts -- the last one may seem silly, but when you&#039;re marketing your game as a replacement for real life and people are spending over 40 hours per week in your virtual world, at what point does the argument that the user as actually been divested of something stop being silly?

While a company may not have any legal duty to discuss why they elected to go a certain route, transparency is the new black.  Plus, if they seriously haven&#039;t figured out that strict control over user-possessed virtual property isn&#039;t necessary to maintain a functioning economy, perhaps academic discussion could help them out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, to give you one brief example, the Bragg case was discussed at the conference (and also within my Comment).  In Bragg, the court found that the compelled arbitration clause from the Second Life EULA was unconscionable (even though a lawyer brought the suit!).  This is the only relevant case that I&#8217;m aware of so far, but it definitely has the EULA attorneys on their feet.  </p>
<p>Other questionable terms include forum selection clauses, choice of venue/law clauses, and unilateral rights to cancel accounts &#8212; the last one may seem silly, but when you&#8217;re marketing your game as a replacement for real life and people are spending over 40 hours per week in your virtual world, at what point does the argument that the user as actually been divested of something stop being silly?</p>
<p>While a company may not have any legal duty to discuss why they elected to go a certain route, transparency is the new black.  Plus, if they seriously haven&#8217;t figured out that strict control over user-possessed virtual property isn&#8217;t necessary to maintain a functioning economy, perhaps academic discussion could help them out.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://legalgeekery.com/2009/05/17/my-eula-crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-2298</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 18:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://legalgeekery.com/?p=1414#comment-2298</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m curious as to what terms you feel are unconscionable.  I&#039;ll admit I don&#039;t play many games (I discovered my addiction years ago, have been on the wagon since) so I&#039;m not sure what sort of terms could be incorporated that would be materially unfair to a user.  Clearly the contract is one of adhesion, especially since the parties are not bargaining at equal degrees of strength, but that doesn&#039;t necessarily make it unconscionable.  

Do companies need to disclose the true reason for their terms?  I mean, as long as the other party consents to them without a presence of duress or fraud, can there be much argument had?  We&#039;re not talking about essential services like a utility company--this is gaming and purely of entertainment value.

While I agree that the way certain business/consumer contracts just seem plainly unfair, especially in today&#039;s digital realm (99% of the reason I&#039;m back in school for the 3rd time), I&#039;m not sure I can disagree with their motives or lack of exposing them.  The MMO&#039;s do rely upon their subscribers, but that doesn&#039;t necessarily make it a psuedo-socialist entity where the users have property and chattle rights that would dictate a public policy change.

Either way, this brief interlude from my contracts final studying was helpful and interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious as to what terms you feel are unconscionable.  I&#8217;ll admit I don&#8217;t play many games (I discovered my addiction years ago, have been on the wagon since) so I&#8217;m not sure what sort of terms could be incorporated that would be materially unfair to a user.  Clearly the contract is one of adhesion, especially since the parties are not bargaining at equal degrees of strength, but that doesn&#8217;t necessarily make it unconscionable.  </p>
<p>Do companies need to disclose the true reason for their terms?  I mean, as long as the other party consents to them without a presence of duress or fraud, can there be much argument had?  We&#8217;re not talking about essential services like a utility company&#8211;this is gaming and purely of entertainment value.</p>
<p>While I agree that the way certain business/consumer contracts just seem plainly unfair, especially in today&#8217;s digital realm (99% of the reason I&#8217;m back in school for the 3rd time), I&#8217;m not sure I can disagree with their motives or lack of exposing them.  The MMO&#8217;s do rely upon their subscribers, but that doesn&#8217;t necessarily make it a psuedo-socialist entity where the users have property and chattle rights that would dictate a public policy change.</p>
<p>Either way, this brief interlude from my contracts final studying was helpful and interesting.</p>
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