9 Reasons Not to Attend Law School
To preface, this is sort of a joke. I say sort of, because I think there are some people who are just made to go to law school, and this probably won’t and shouldn’t deter them. It’s mostly a warning to those people considering law school for lack of anything better to do. With that said, I present to you 9 Reasons Not to Attend Law School:
9. Expensive Books
Law textbooks may be one of the most overlooked but ridiculous aspects of law school. I spend an average of $500 on books per semester. This isn’t like physics where a compilation of relevant laws and equations will be useful in the future. These giant, verbose collections — second only to an Ayn Rand novel — are useful once, because almost everything in them is within the public domain. Only once in my entire life have I opened up a law book (patents) to assist me with a real case. It’s generally way easier to open up a digest or search with Lexis or Westlaw.
Oh, and did I mention that you’ll be carrying around 60 lb of books in your giant freaking backpack? That presents another problem: do you get a rolling backpack and look like a tool? No, you don’t. You wear a giant backpack and knock over anybody stupid enough to stand behind you on the bus.
8. You’re Not That Smart
Once upon a time, you probably thought you were pretty smart (otherwise, why are you considering law school). Well, friends, law school is a time for you to find out that you’re not as smart as you thought you were. This is a time for you to learn that even though you’ve eaten wine and cheese with some of the top particle physicists in the world, there will be a guy in your con law class that makes you look like a frigging idiot. I’m not kidding. You know those guys that walk into Dunkin’ Donuts drooling on themselves and scratching their crotches? That’s what you look like next to this guy (or girl).
You’re probably thinking to yourself, “Self, I’ll be the one looking at the other people like they’re drooling on themselves.” To that, I will bid you the following warnings: (1) no, you’re not that guy or girl. He or she may be reading this right now, but you’re not him. He’s probably writing his next book, or at least reading The Law of Corporations: In a Nutshell (In a Nutshell); and (2) not only are you not that guy, but the odds are that at least one-fourth of your classmates will be looking at you like that. Why? Because people get accepted to law schools that are appropriate for them (grade-wise and LSAT-wise). Right off the bat, this should tell you that you’re probably not much smarter than your classmates. There are, of course, some exceptions.
7. Law-cest
It’s ridiculously tempting. You’re cooped up all the time with the same people, studying the same thing. Who else could understand the insane amount of time you’re going to spend studying other than a law student? Look at her. She’s hot. She’s smart. Why not, right? Wrong! Remember in undergrad when you dated that girl in calculus and it got real awkward when you broke up? Good thing you didn’t run in the same group of friends, right? You only had to deal with it when she took the batteries out of your TI-89 and threw them on the floor. Right, Lindsay? Anyway, imagine that scenario if you were in every single class together for a year, and then continued to take a bunch of classes together for two more after that. In addition, you roll in the same clique (collectively, “the law school”), and you bump into each other everywhere you go.
Oh, and did I mention that everyone in the law school knows more about your personal life with her than you do? It’s baffling, really, but we’ll discuss that in more detail later.
6. Energy Drink Addiction
This past semester, my girlfriend and I cleaned out the stock of all Bawls at not one, but two nearby convenient stores in preparation for finals. Energy drinks cost too much money, and take a toll on your health. On the bright side, no one’s heart has exploded yet (to my knowledge). People at law school are not shy about asking you for a sip of the energy drink that you brought to class either, which probably contributes to the incredible speed at which viruses spread through law school. If you see a law student near the end of the semester, pay careful attention: she’s probably twitching.
Everyone at law school has some kind of mental or physical problem. Most drink too much, some are depressed, some have ADHD, and 99% of them are stressed out most or all of the time. In addition, there are always concerns of carpal tunnel, eyestrain, stress headaches, and ulcers. We also eat out too much because there’s no time to cook. It’s not a glamorous lifestyle, but I proffer that it’s a right of passage.
5. It’s Grammar School All Over Again
See if you can pick out any similarities:
- first year, you don’t get to pick any of your classes or professors, it’s all assigned to you before you get there, and you have no way to transfer out
- You have a gi-normous backpack and carry around your books all the time
- The same people are in all of your classes, all day, every day
- Everyone calls you by your last name again
- There’s plenty of drama to be had
- Rumors (and worse, the truth) spread through the entire school at the speed of light
I can hear you thinking: law school must be different somehow, right? Well, right. Close your eyes and spend a moment thinking back to your elementary school days. Okay good, you’ve got it. Now imagine that, only add alcohol and sex. Yeah, it’s not a pretty picture.
4. No Leisure Activities
It’s not like you lose the drive to do things for fun — you just lose the time to do them. 1L year, we were always able to sneak in plans to play some soccer or football, but it required careful planning and there were always the people that didn’t show up because they had too much work. Pickup games of ultimate are generally no longer viable.
Do you read for fun? You might not anymore after having to read 200 pages of dense law material per night. I literally have not read a novel for fun since I began law school.
I don’t mean to say that law school is entirely all work and no play, but it is a certainty that you will have less time than ever to enjoy life. You’ll find yourself making the best out of endless nights in the law library or in the student lounge by doing terrible things like having intellectual discussions about jurisprudence.
3. Huge Loans
Law school is insanely expensive, even if you get decent scholarships. I elected to forego some full boats to attend a school that I had a good gut feeling about. Every time I look at my loan records, I want to punch myself in the face. I’m embarrassed to say the total amount, but my loan payments will be the majority of an average US job salary.
No problem, right? Because you’re going to get a biglaw job and start off at $160,000 a year! Well, sure, that might happen. If you’re at a T12 school, your chances are certainly up there. Otherwise, you’re going to have to get awesome grades, make law review and/or moot court, have good prior work experience, and interview really, really well. If you still think that you’re a shoe in, there’s no sense in talking to you.
Statistically speaking, most of you will not work in biglaw. That’s where the next problem begins. Salaries for lawyers are very polar. Generally speaking, they’re huge for biglaw people, reasonable for medium-size private firm people, and crap for everyone else. There are exceptions, particularly for boutiques, but you get the idea. Are you looking forward to being a district attorney like the guy you saw on Law & Order? Hopefully you can pay off your $100k+ loans on a salary of ~35-50k. Interested in representing indigents with a state-sponsored employer? How about way less money? Thankfully, some states and law schools offer loan forgiveness for attorneys that decide to pursue public interest, and if you’re interested in going that route, you definitely need to look into that.
2. Your Friends Are Your Enemies
If you’re fortunate enough to go to a law school (like me) where people are generally pretty friendly, you’ll probably only notice this aspect of law school around finals. Even at the nicest school, where people send you class notes without your having to ask, law students turn into rabid animals interested only in self-preservation about two weeks before finals. People may start avoiding you altogether so that you can’t ask them for help. Remember that girl in property that was so quick to offer you her input before spring break? All of a sudden, she can’t tell you the difference between a life estate and a fee tail.
It’s not their fault though: the school is essentially forcing them to compete. So long as they don’t start sabotaging your computer or hiding library books, consider the doctrine of No Harm, No Foul governing.
1. The Curve is Evil
The curve is the beast of all beasts. It’s what keeps your friends your enemies, and it’s why we feel the driving force to compete with our peers 24 hours a day. During undergrad, I loved the curve. I scored something around a 60 in one of my quantum mechanics exams, which turned into a B+ or an A- after the curve was applied. Life was good.
Fast forward to my very first grade of law school: my professor handed me back my closed memo with a raw score written at the top. 97. Ninety-freaking-seven. I was elated. I almost couldn’t have done any better. Imagine my surprise then, when my professor wrote the conversion down on the board and my awesome grade turned into a B+.
The biggest problem is that while undergrad has some natural error correction whereby one fluke during an exam or a problem set can be fixed, you usually only get one grade per class in law school. That’s right: almost all classes in law school assign no homework, and your grade is 100% determined by your final exam. Having an off-day? No problem. It’s only the rest of your life. Some people obviously manage to consistently score well, though, so maybe there is some merit to the system.
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A very well written article. I’m almost two years out of law school, and barely a day goes by when I don’t think about what a bad decision it was. I was a successful middle school teacher with a class full of students who loved me, summers off, and a fairly light workload (once you get the system down, it’s not that tough). But of course, that wasn’t enough…. now I’m 100k+ in debt, my longtime gf left me at the end of the first year (very common to law students), I have to deal with difficult judges, arrogant attorneys and 11+ hour workdays just to make just a little bit more than what I was earning before.
My advice to potential law students? If you feel absolutely compelled to go into law, or you have great connections in law already, or you’re a genius, go for it. Otherwise, RUN. Run as far and fast away as you can from this hellish field of practice. Thanks for letting me vent.
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mike jones Reply:
January 29th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
@Rob, what law school did you attend? you’re obviously working alot, but not to your full earning potential if you’re putting in that many hours and still earning little more than a middle school teacher.
in the words of big worm, “you ain’t applying yourself, smokey!
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WhoCares Reply:
February 8th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
@mike jones,
You obviously didn’t read his post correctly. He said he WAS a middle school teacher and mentioned absolutely nothing about how much he’s making now, two years out of law school. Kind of presumptuous to say he’s not applying himself.
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seriously Reply:
June 23rd, 2009 at 4:33 pm
@WhoCares, seriously?
“just to make just a little bit more than what I was earning before”
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M Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
@Rob, Hi Rob, I’m working on a documentary and I’m interested in the opinion you expressed above. Would you mind shooting me an e-mail so I can pick your brain? Thanks! mdesir[@]gmail[.]com (no brackets).
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The # 1 reason not to go to law school is that there are waaaaaaaay too many attorneys and hardly any jobs.
You go into debt and there is absolutely no pay off unless you are one of the %5 who get a job at a big firm.
The practice of law is dead.
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Thanks for the heads up. I’m an undergrad now, and I was thinking about going to law school after graduation. I’ll probably going anyway, but at least I’ll know it’s not as great as people make it out to be.
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Look, I have been practicing for 13 years. There are many types of law practice. Mine has been litigation on the plaintiff’s side. Law school and the practice of law can still be rewarding and you can help a lot of people. You can still make a good living if you run your own practice and get involved in personal injury or commercial litigation. I wasn’t good at working for someone else, or at least I wasn’t when I started. That’s why I went out on my own. If you start your own practice, the main tip I can give you is to KEEP YOUR OVERHEAD LOW! Don’t worry about fancy letterhead. Buy a $100 laser printer and print it on each letter you write as the top of the letter.
Create a free website through Google. Don’t let people suck you into buying a fancy website. Don’t worry about advertising. Just network. Got to parties, meetings, bar functions, etc., and hand out very basic cards (the cheaper the better) and follow up with calls to people you get cards from. As you get clients to represent, and do a good job, you’ll get more clients. At first, it’ll be tight, but DON’T GIVE IN to the temptation to spend a lot of money. Sublet a SMALL office, maybe in an executive suite setup or similar. You can carve out a living at first, and then you’ll come across better cases, and so on. Try to office with other attorneys who might have some overflow business, or cases they do not want to handle, or are conflicted from taking. Ask them questions and for advice.
Don’t get rooked in to buying in to a partnership. If you want to work with someone, form a loose affiliation at first without commingling accounts first to see if it will work out.
Tort reform has hurt the practice for both plaintiff and defense lawyers — it’s hard to justify the expense of filing some lawsuits, and as a result, defense firms are drying up with no cases to defend. However, as a result, there are fewer plaintiff’s lawyers looking for mid sized or smaller injury cases. Thus, you can still find smaller to mid sized cases that can be your bread and butter.
At the same time, take the time to learn another area of practice that can pay hourly or at least be a more regular source of income. Look in to intellectual property, commercial collection practice (join a group like the commercial law league (Google it)). Maybe an area like wills, estates, trusts, tax, bankruptcy, representing a municipality or MUD district, or try to get some regular small business clients who have misc. legal issues (contracts, collections, lease issues) to get some regular income.
It’s not particularly glamorous, but if you can survive, you can prosper over time.
Next, TRY YOUR LAWSUITS. If you get a reputation for not being willing to go to trial, you will not do well. Work on your trial skills and do not be afraid to go down to the courthouse on a moment’s notice. Get down there to file TRO’s in any case you can fit one in to. Be aggressive, but treat opposing counsel politely and how you’d want to be treated. Learn all the different legal tools to gain the advantage fairly and professionally, and give the other side a break when they ask (what goes around comes around). When in doubt, go to trial. You’ll be amazed what can happen when the jury panel’s seated and voir dire is about to start.
Contribute to elected judges and ask them for guardian ad litem and attorney ad litem appointments.
Don’t be an ivory tower lawyer. If you want to succeed, you won’t do it by sitting in your office. Get out and visit your clients at their homes. Go to the scene of the accident or assault and take some photos. Go interview witnesses yourself with an inexpensive mp3 audio recorder so you can upload and e-mail the files from your computer.
Make sure you take some criminal cases. You’ll get good trial experience, and you can get paid up front. DON’T AGREE TO DO ONE MINUTE’S WORTH OF WORK UNTIL YOU ARE PAID THE ENTIRE FEE OR ALMOST ALL OF IT or you’ll never get paid. Period.
Finally, be the expert in an area. Become the very best insurance coverage lawyer anyone knows. Everyone will call the guru when the stuff hits the fan. Be the guy who really knows how to draft a real estate sale contract, or knows ERISA law. You can clean up.
Anyway, those are my stream of consciousness thoughts. You can make a good living. You just need to be creative and get your nose bloodied and hands dirty sometimes.
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Nate Reply:
January 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 pm
@PI Lawyer, that was like an article within an article. Good stuff! Thanks!
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Joshua Auriemma Reply:
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 pm
@PI Lawyer, That was a great comment. Would you agree that it’s beneficial to start out working for someone else? I mean, I’m a 2L, but even by the time I graduate, my grasp of the actual procedural practice of law will still be weak.
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PI Lawyer Reply:
January 3rd, 2009 at 11:28 pm
@Joshua Auriemma, I think if you get a good job offer, then you have to seriously consider it. Let’s be serious. If you can learn on someone else’s dime and get paid reasonably well, then of course that’s worth a lot.
Don’t take a job just because you’re nervous about procedure, though. You can pick that up very quickly as you go. It seems very abstract while you’re in law school, but becomes very concrete in a given lawsuit.
Couple more points:
Most of what you do in a law practice they didn’t teach in law school. Or at least not 1L courses. Try to take some practical or clinic courses. If there’s a volunteer lawyer program, like at my law school, get in there and represent some real folks. You’ll see it’s not that difficult.
I forgot to mention referral fees, contingency fees and hybrid fee arrangements. Referral fees: You don’t have to be Clarence Darrow right off the bat. If you happen to get a good case, consider referring it to someone else, or joint venturing it where someone else pays the expenses while you do the leg work. Then divide the fee. you get good experience, a ready consultant, and you can make a decent fee without the financial risk if you get the case settled or win at trial.
Contingency fees: you can get a good client when they don’t have to pay up front, but only at the end. Get the agreement in writing. Graduate the fee so that if you settle before trial it’s one fee. If you pick a jury (but settle thereafter) it’s another fee. If you have to appeal, it’s another (higher) percentage fee. This only applies to litigation matters, of course, and only if you’re the plaintiff’s lawyer.
Hybrid fees: sometimes with the right client, you can get a few grand up front and then a contingency fee on the rest. that way you can have some expense money or something to buy groceries with, and still get a nice fee at the end of the case.
In summary: if you get a good offer, go for it, but be sure it’s someone you want to work with and learn from and who will give you good opportunities to get into the courtroom, or get hands on experience with real legal and client matters (as opposed to being stuck in the library or answering phones all day). If it’s a huge firm with great pay, that’s a no brainer in terms of financial security at least for a while, but it’s not right for everyone. Don’t go to work for some solo who expects you to be their receptionist, copier-repairperson or gopher. You can learn the procedure as you go — really you can learn it better when your ass is on the line if you don’t learn it.
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LSULaw 2009 Reply:
January 6th, 2009 at 7:34 am
@PI Lawyer,
Referral Fees – Becareful as some states (I know Louisiana is one) forbid referral fees, and require all fees to be earned.
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MiserableLawyerIsMiserable Reply:
January 4th, 2009 at 11:31 am
@PI Lawyer,
I hear ya but you CAN benefit from having a good website created by someone knows what they are doing and understands SEO. Not all websites are crap that isn’t worth paying for.
Everything else you say about keeping the overhead low, I agree with 110%.
I’ve seen some attorneys come out of law school and immediately setup a HUGE office with staff and new computers and all kinds of expensive STUFF. It’s mostly guys who do this and it seems like it’s because they really, really want to quickly be able to present themselves as “established” lawyers.
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At Thiel College in Greensville, Pennsylvania I used to hide library books during finals. because you don’t want others to get the books were being graded on a bell curve. so around finals you’d go to the library and hide some of the course kits and take out the only copy of lecture notes left by the prof in the library and put it on an extended hold so that others can’t get to it.
lots of things you can do even sabotaging people was acceptable. like if someone asks you a question before the actual exam like hours before you try to pretend like you don’t know the answer. if they press you for an answer give them something borderline wrong so they go with it and run with it and get it wrong. that way you have less competition. lots of people have rich parents so they are a real threat.
you could as had done before once, go to extent of really screwing people over like lying about the exam date so people miss the exam. it’s not that bad because they hsould check up on it themselves.
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John Doe Reply:
January 4th, 2009 at 6:45 am
@Douglas Sowash,
Wow! Will you be my lawyer?
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Kaytie Reply:
January 13th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Your post made me sad for humanity.
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Compared to math Phd Graduate school, law school is a breeze. You don’t even have to produce an original thesis–theorems and proofs– that hasn’t been done already by the
100,000+ geniuses working like dogs all over the world. ( That’s a lot of geniuses, but in a world of six billion, there are there.)
And, if you think the life and success possibilities of a young lawyer are tough, try life as junior math research faculty member at a research university.
Anyway, nice post. Cures some of my midlife crisis:
The lawyers that I know drive Porsches and
have big houses and summer homes in nice places.
They are all miserable. The mathematicians tend to be living on peanut butter, drive ten year old cars, and are happy. Except, when they are jealous of the lawyers.
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#1 reason TO attend law school
Knowledge of the LAW is POWER! That and lawyers can do things normal people can’t, within the legal system etc.
But yeah, it’s a miserable pile of crap made even worse once you graduate and realize that the practice of law is AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT DISCIPLINE than going to law school or studying for the bar.
And a book called “The Terrible Truth About Lawyers” by Mark H. McCormack (may this wonderful man rest in peace) should be required reading for anyone interested in law and for anyone considering hiring a lawyer.
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Good article. I chuckled when I read through most of the points. True, I remember them well even though it’s been 10 years since I graduated from Law School but these memories will stay with you. Perspective, gained in time, helps but you’re right, if someone does not want to be an attorney, there are many other fields out there. If you’re not sure, think about it a few years longer. There were many OWLS (Older Wiser Law Students) in my class and they’re doing just fine.
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I would say, lawyer is still the mostly high paid and will be for some time ( per salarylist.com ) and I think it is a smart investment for long term
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WARNING: SUPER LONG POST. With ALOT of parentheses. Guess I had alot to say. :)
Wow. It sure seems that people in law school/have attended law school are more often than not completely miserable. Perhaps this is why our profession competes for the top spot in highest rates of clinical depression and substance abuse than any other. (about 40% of lawyers are clinically depressed, and 60% of law students by the second month after starting law school according to the ABA Law Student Division Mental Health Committee).
My input is that it is everyone’s personal responsibility to find and maintain their own happiness in their profession (and lives in general).
***If you had an idea that you would be Denny Crain before you came to law school, you did not make an informed decision.
***If you thought you would be driving a porsche and have a beach house within 5 years of graduation (or possibly even AT ALL), and could do it working in the public defenders office on top of it, you did not make an informed decision.
(Though there are some exceptions. Probably not at the PD’s office unless you marry the exception that drives the porsche and has the beach house 5 years into practice! ;-p)
***If you did not know that you would or could be $100K – $250K in debt by the time you finish law school – and what that actually translates into in terms of what your monthly payments will be and how much salary you need to make to actually be able to eat while in repayment, you did not make an informed decision.
It’s true that law school can be a very competitive, soul-crushing experience for some. I’ve seen it. BUT if you have done your research, are honest with yourself about your potential as well as interests, and find your niche in law school when you get there, then you will find – at the very least – some modicum of satisfaction and contentment, and at the most – ACTUAL happiness.
For me, I realized within the first two weeks of school that I would not be in the top of my class. I’m a single mom with a tough life prior to and during school (my son is special needs), and I simply could not (cannot) compete with the other students that can spend 20 hours a day in the library, or the ones who grew up in a family of lawyers or any other multitude of seemingly advantageous factors, including economics and/or the innate ‘knack’ for legal academia (which is VERY different the knack for legal practice) that some possess, which I admittedly do not.
I mitigated.
Here’s what works for me, and perhaps I am one of the few, but as a student halfway finished with my 2L year, I am still both grateful and pleased to be a law student, as well as very excited – and NOT disillusioned – about the possibilities after law school.
***First, I attend part time. It might take longer, but it assures me that I can give each subject as much attention as possible each semester. I still don’t hit the top, mostly the middle, but I’m getting through law school one day at a time. When I am done, I’ll have a JD, and my reputation will precede me (see below).
***Second, I got involved. I am extremely involved in leadership, innovation and fund-raising on campus and within the community. I don’t believe a single law firm would look down on me for being a ‘rainmaker’ as it were, and have spoken to a few practicing, successful attorneys that agree. I demonstrate my efficiency, creativity, ability to work with people and to develop a repoire with/gain the trust of strangers (translates into clients), and (perhaps) most importantly, my ability to bring in money.
(IF I were to choose the firm route – which is likely not for me, but you never know, have to keep the options open as much as realistically possible, so I have to strongly preserve at least ONE firm selling point….).
As I see it (for me), by being involved, professionals throughout my community, including my peers, will (and do) already know that when it comes to getting something done, I’m the gal. When it comes to creativity, I’m the gal. When it comes to getting money from nowhere, I’m the gal. Recently, my BF (see below) was participating in a practice trial for a class, in which opposing counsels witness was someone that had transferred from my school to his. Upon realizing that they both knew me, the transfer said: “Oh yeah, I know her. She really gets things done!” Obviously, third party translation, but you get my point.
In the end, I will have gotten through school – which, I might add, is only PART of the training for the legal profession. The rest you get with experience – aka – PRACTICE – hence the term LAW PRACTICE.
Third, I minimized my financial obligations. I cut up all of my credit cards (yes ALL!!!!), take out the bare minimum in student loans, and make up as much as I can with Federal Work study. $9,000 per year in work study income is almost a $40k decrease in loan obligations when I am done. I went to the school that offered me the best scholarship. (Not a higher Tiered school). I also stopped buying textbooks after my first year. I realized that it was not often that any professor went through any book from cover to cover. I go to my library reserve desk after I receive the syllabus and check out the books for 10 or 15 minutes and photocopy my reading assignments. It turns my $120 text book into $30 in copying fees (on 11 x 17 paper which copies two pages at at time). I am still using the same 3-ring binders I bought a year and a half ago to hold the copies. If your school does not allow photocopying for some reason, you can just go to the library and read it there. If not – get creative. Share costs and custody of a book half and half with a classmate. Sit together in class so you can both look on if the prof references the text. Take good notes.
I scaled down my apartment (smaller, less amenities but closer to school), bought an older yet reliable car (no car payments, less insurance), and I budget budget budget. I live within my means (that means cash on hand people – no buying stuff I can’t pay for now), and if that means no restaurant dinners 3x a week so be it. Trader Joe’s sells pre-packaged meals, salads and all kinds of other quick, convenient and healthy stuff. And it falls pretty squarely into my budget. I will still be in pretty hefty debt, but over $100k less than my boyfriend will be. (Yes, he is a law student too – but AT A DIFFERENT SCHOOL!! I won’t date anyone I have to see every day at school – talk about awkward if something goes wrong!) And my debt also includes my undergrad loans. If you don’t know how to budget, ask for help.
Fourth, I am realistic about my options/abilities. I already know I am not big firm material because I am unable/unwilling to make the ’sacrifices’ necessary to get there along with other practical reasons for not wanting that life. I can’t/won’t work 90 hours a week, I can’t stroke an arrogant fools ego all day, and I like to have autonomy and creativity. Perhaps most importantly, as I said previously, I am simply unable to make the committment and sacrifices in law school that would get me there on a traditional path. But I can tell you there are at least a handful of attorneys in large firms that already know I am highly efficient, talented, balanced and I bring in money. Not to mention the peers I have that will land there also knowing. But, I’ll likely do public interest, and have thoroughly explored my options there.
Both my school and the ABA Law Student Division have Loan Repayment Assistance programs, where you only pay a certain percentage of your income toward loan repayment for X amount of years. If you stay in public interest for X amount of years – not necessarily the same job, your loans are forgiven entirely in some LRAPs. (10 years at my school – and I seem to remember that it includes undergrad debt too, but I would have to double check it.)
Equal Justice Works has 2-3 year fellowship grant opportunities if you are creative/resourceful enough to create a program for an unmet need in your community and a find an existent non-profit that will ’sponsor’ you to start the program after graduation. Acceptable proposed budget line items for a grant includes, among other things, your salary. It also can count as public interest work toward loan repayment assistance programs. There are also a number of other ways to gain personal satisfaction in public interest while keeping loan payments manageable after school.
Before you go to law school, you should probably be asking yourself a series of questions to determine whether or not you actually should or even want to go. If you are already in law school and hate it, then by all means, find a different path (which may just be readjusting your perception of what a JD can do for you) – and start by asking yourself some questions!
What I have constructed below is by no means an exhaustive list, and no single question alone, nor all of them combined should be used exclusively to make any kind of determination for YOU. They are just questions I have asked myself that helped ME to decide.
1) How much debt am I willing to be in, and what does that mean in terms of how much my monthly payments will be and how much will I have to make in salary to at least keep my CURRENT student lifestyle? (or if you like public interest off the bat): Does the school I am looking at have a loan repayment assistance program, what is the most I could earn per year to qualify for it, what percentage of my salary would go toward repayment, and does it include my undergraduate loans? (there are tons of loan payment calculators online)
2) What kind of law would I have to practice and where would I have to work (what kind of firm) in order to be able to pay those loans back and still eat (And am I willing/able to do it)?
(Your willingness/ability to do it may have to be readjusted after you start law school depending on your performance once there. Some areas of practice may not be (readily) available to you depending on your grades. You can look at law firm/areas of law average salaries, public interest average salaries, average first year associate responsibilities, feedback from new/recent grads etc., there are tons of blogs out there)
3) Does what I want to do professionally REQUIRE a law degree? If not, would getting one significantly increase my opportunities/salary options in that arena?
(The only thing that REQUIRES a JD is the practice of law to my knowledge. But I never looked into what else does, if anything)
4) What if I hate law school and want to quit because I don’t want to be a lawyer?
(or)
How could I possibly quit if I hate it (law school) when I will already be in a crazy amount of debt, since my first year of law school in most places will likely be more expensive than the entire total of what I already owe for 4 (or more) years of undergrad?
(There are a number of non-lawyer careers in which a JD could benefit you, such as the foreign service, FBI, CIA, Military, executive director of a non-profit, staff AT a law school such as Deans/Associate Deans, Student Services & Teaching, as well as some executive/business tracks. These benefits could include entering at a higher pay rate/higher position and/or the expansion of your options concerning just how high/far you can go).
5) Could I/would I be happy/content doing something else that won’t get in me in this much debt?
6) Am I being honest and realistic about my own expectations of myself, law school and the legal profession? (including limitations such as current family obligation, health, learning disabilities)
(TALK to people! Lawyers, law students, former lawyers and former law students, people with a JD that no longer or never practiced – trust me – EVERYONE will have something different to say because law school/practice/non-practice are what YOU make it.)
Ultimately, it’s up to you what journey you take – AND whether or not you are happy while you are on it (and after you complete it). Don’t get me wrong, everything requires less than desirable tasks, times of doubt and insecurity as well as the whole “what was I thinking”….but you just have to assess how much of those feelings you are willing to or that are fair for you to put up with considering your end result. Everyone has a different threshold/limit.
The article above demonstrates a pretty ’standard’ law school experience – if you allow it. You CAN eat healthy and get exercise (most schools have intramural programs that provide sports for free or discounted rates to students), stay away from gossip and drama, keep your debt to a minimum, maintain a sense of confidence in yourself and your abilities, and leave without a cynical sense of distrust in your peers or regret for your efforts all while still having ‘a life’ – but it’s up to YOU to make the experience one that is positive and most beneficial to you, your families, your clients and the rest of the profession.
Yes…the curve can be brutal. Make sure you know what it is – I have heard that schools that are harder to get into are easier to stay in and vice versa – though I don’t know the level of merit that has. Pertaining to that, make sure you how many people your school fails out AND how many just leave voluntarily after not doing well first semester, and whether or not there is an appeal process for ‘failing out’. (My school does not have one.)
For me…I just aim for the middle, and I always get there. If you try to hold yourself to a higher standard than what you are capable of, or that could possibly result from the amount of effort/time you put into it, then yes, you’ll fail miserably. Use your first semester grades and exams to tell you what your weaknesses are if any (if you don’t think you have them, there is something very wrong with you!), where/how you can improve, AND if you’re willing or able to do what it takes to get there.
Personally, I’ve had semesters where I did not have time to even open the freaking book until a week before the exam, so I know for me, it’s just about getting through school and making up for my ‘just average’ grades in other areas. I simply won’t go to extraordinary efforts for great improvements because my life currently won’t allow it, and even if it did, frankly, I would still be interested in having one (a life) outside of law school – so I likely would not be willing.
Early on, I decided that law school is NOT law PRACTICE, and figuring out, memorizing and applying my professors warped rewrites of restatements will not matter one bit once in practice, because guess what – in practice I can actually LOOK IT UP. I don’t need to “shine academically” in Law School to get through it. In fact 90% of law students are not considered ’stellar’ students…the top 10% is the place you want to be for the six-figures-out-of-law-school job. And likely at a top school.
That said, you better darn well believe that I will shine in law practice because I will leave here balanced, experienced and with a stellar reputation amongst my peers and in my community – along with the ability to actually have a choice as to what I want to practice instead of HAVING to get the highest paying job I can that I absolutely hate – all because I have kept my debt to a minimum, accepted the limitations I face be my own design or circumstance and have kept my (realistic) options open.
But again, everyone’s different.
Finally, in all honesty, there is simply nothing that can be done about the energy drink (coffee in my case) addiction. AND you will start buying protein bars by the case, if you don’t already. It goes hand in hand with law school….even if you don’t like either before you get here!!!
But then again, that’s probably just something I tell myself instead of admitting that I’m unwilling to change it!
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LawStudent Reply:
January 6th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
@Jane Doe,
I would love to ask you some questions about decreasing loans while in Law School. Is there anyway to email you?
I am a current student trying not to grad. with crazy amount of loans.
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Jane Doe Reply:
January 6th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
@LawStudent,
Hi LawStudent…
Josh tried to email you my contact information but the email bounced back to him. I’m happy to talk with you, but you’ll need to either provide a good email address by posting a response with your correct email address, or you’ll need to get me your email address another way.
Cheers,
Jane Doe
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Law Studnet Reply:
January 6th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
@Jane Doe,
Hey sorry about that. I have added the proper email address.
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latenighter Reply:
January 30th, 2009 at 2:03 am
@Jane Doe,
thanks for the post. i have a similar situation in some respects (new baby, no. 2, is medically special needs) and am trying to decide what to do before my lsat scores expire. good to know that slow & steady and more realistic/grounded is doable. the niche-finding and acting on existing talents are great points as well, as is the nudge to talk to people (atty friends are falling on either side of the debate; nary a soul in between!). best to you and yours.
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15 years ago I graduated from college with a BA in Poli Sci and didn’t know what to do. For me, law school was the path of least resistance (dad’s a lawyer) and I knew I’d easily get into the state school. I went to a great high school and found most of college was a breeze. (what I can remember of it)
I thought I could do the same in law school. My first semester I had a 2.68 gpa. I didn’t get what law school was about – I thought it was about being smart! No way! It is about memorization and repitition (you still have to understand some difficult concepts like the Rule Against Perpetuities and the tax code, but only well enough to apply and spit them back out). Once I realized that, I did pretty well though I wasn’t a “gunner” (God Forbid!) and I never made law review. Law school rewards hard work much more than it does intellect.
I spent lots of time studying the library’s cache of trial and advocacy videos and learned from people like Irving Younger, Faust Rossi and Michael Tigar). This saved me in practice. Use what’s available and don’t limit yourself to the syllabus.
Definitely try your cases. You’ll be terrified for the first few, but eventually the horror shrivels away and you become as comfortable in front of a crowd as you do in your living room practicing to your dog. It’s the only way to develop that comfort.
Take a bar review course! I had a miserably boring Con Law professor from whom I learned nothing. I learned more from several hours of video from a professor at UVA whom I never met than I could have from years with my professor. Thank you Bar-Bri!
Don’t panic! Catastrophes can be managed. One of my good friends went to the law school one day to take his UCC final only to find nobody there-the exam had occurred the previous day. He ran to the professor, who, after satisfying himself that the accident was genuine, took him home to the prof’s house where he took the exam then was fed a nice dinner with the professor’s family. Not every professor will do that but remember that you always have options in a crisis.
Don’t take classes from bad teachers, and don’t avoid the tough ones who will teach you something. I had an admin law professor who spent the first half of every lecture reiterating what he said last time until he found where he’d left off. The professors who used a socratic method or simply called on students taught me something – I was too afraid of humiliation not to be ready every day.
Don’t just go out and buy all the books the professor lists for the course! Somewhere in my basement is a complete copy of the Restatement (2nd) of Torts that I bought my first semester, first year, and it’s still wrapped in plastic.
Don’t just take courses on what you hope to be practicing. I took any course I felt. “otta know a little about” and it was pivotal. Bankruptcy and intellectual property will help you some day no matter what you do.
And don’t be a gunner. There was a guy in my class who sat in the front row and raised his hand like Horshack at even rhetorical questions – I sh*t you not – I’d never have believed it had I not seen it myself. Gunners will do things like hide library books (ABSOLUTELY unacceptable), lie, and step on you to get a better rank. An early colleague of mine told of going to school with a gunner like that named Judy Chatta – they called her Res Judichatta). It isn’t worth it. You always reap what you sow and if you adopt such behavior in law school you’re in for a rude awakening when you’re one year out of law school and facing off with people your parents and grandparents’ ages who will give you no quarter. (Some won’t give any quarter regardless but the lawyers I faced off with who were polite and helpful can ask me for almost any favor, anytime, and I’ll do it). I still give the assh*les a second chance before I turn off the “easy” button.
Everything in this list of reasons not to go to law school is true, but it will get much better. Remember: 1st year they scare you to death, 2nd year they work you to death, and 3rd year they bore you to death. DO summer clerkships – you’ll learn more in three months of a good clerkship – and get well-paid – than you do in a year of law school.
My rant hath ended with apologies for its length :)
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Benjamin Clarke Reply:
January 19th, 2010 at 7:59 pm
@Belisarius,
Hey I loved this response you made. I am currently a high school student with aspirations to become a lawyer, would you have any time for some quick questions? I would love to get advice from some one who knows what they are talking about.. Thanks
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Jane Doe – if you’re looking to practice in Pa, NJ, or NY, let me know! You’ve hit it on the head about what a good lawyer is made of. (Neither snakes, snails, puppy dog tails nor sugar, spice, and everything nice, but balance and improvisation).
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Belisarius -
Thanks! At the moment, I’m happy in CA, but you never know. What area(s) of practice do you work in?
Jane Doe
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Jane: I do medical malpractice defense, insurance coverage, and general liability defense work, mostly. I work for a 90 lawyer firm based in Philadelphia but I’m in the 10 member Pittsburgh office – nice small firm atmosphere.
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Jane Doe Reply:
January 5th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
@Belisarius,
Hmmm…I’m not sure if I could do malpractice/insurance defense, being the bleeding heart that I am and all. That said, I honestly have no idea what it entails, and I would be a hypocrite to chide others for making uninformed decisions if I myself make one. Tell me more….
How do we take this offline?
Jane Doe
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Joshua Auriemma Reply:
January 5th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
@Jane Doe, If you two would like, I can email one of you with the other’s email address and you can retain relative anonymity. Just let me know.
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Jane Doe Reply:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
@Joshua Auriemma,
Hi Josh -
You can go ahead and give my email address to Belisarius as well as the commenter “LawStudent” who has also expressed a desire to get in touch with me.
Thank you for facilitating that!
By the way, great job on creating a post that has generated so much attention. The link to this blog is rapidly making its way around facebook!
Cheers,
Jane Doe
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Joshua Auriemma Reply:
January 6th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
@Jane Doe, I’ve passed your email along to Belisarius. Unfortunately, LawStudent’s email address bounced back to me.
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Jane Doe Reply:
January 6th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
@Joshua Auriemma,
Thanks! I’ll respond to LawStudent’s comment and see if he/she surfaces that way.
Cheers.
Jane Doe Reply:
January 8th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
@Joshua Auriemma,
Hi Josh,
You can go ahead and send my email address to LawStudent. Evidently the email error was corrected.
Thanks!
Jane Doe
Joshua Auriemma Reply:
January 8th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
@Jane Doe,
Already done. Cheers.
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Haha, you made a fee tail joke. I’ve always thought that what you gain from a school is a function of how hard you work. That’s why going to Temple Law (@$16k/yr tuition) is so smart — think about all the Sugar-Free Rockstar you can get w/ the extra cash.
#7 is contradicted by both Josh & myself still dating lovely girls from Fall 1L torts (we’re clearly an exception to the rule, and have seen some serious drama pass us by).
I’d add that law school steals all your breaks: 0L summer = being scared; 1L winter = job search; 1L summer = law review write on -> 1L job; 2L fall = job search; 2L winter = comment writing -> seasonal affective disorder; 2L summer = semi-freedom depending on your situation.
Thanks for all the good comments.
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[...] of you will get a kick out of The 9 Reasons Not to Attend Law School, others of you will read it and start to lament decisions you’ve made and maybe even find [...]
Funny list but it’s kind of a downer. I would rather be a low paid lawyer than a MBA who plays with spreadsheets all day.
Avoid Debbie Downers!
http://www.youngtexaslawyer.com/2009/01/05/avoid-debbie-downer/
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Thoughts from a current 2L:
9. ” Expensive books”: Borrow them from upperclassmen, or pay less when you buy from 2Ls/3Ls you know.
8. “You’re Not That Smart.” Maybe. But I’m still here…
7. “Law-Cest”: Hmm. Not me. Not yet, anyway.
6. “Energy Drink Addiction”: Other than exam-time Diet Coke, nope.
5. “Grammar School All Over Again”: OK, this one’s true.
4. “No Leisure Activities”: Drinking with classmates counts, right? (Might lead to #7 or #5, above, though). Plus, there’s always Facebook.
3. ” Huge Loans”: My school is the best deal in the state. Low tuition and frugal living keep expenses down.
2. “You Friends Are Your Enemies”: Maybe. But I think most of us eventually stop seeing it that way, at least after 1L.
1. “The Curve Is Evil”. Hmm. Life isn’t fair in general, and not everyone can be at the top. (And I should know!)
1st year was exhausting. 2nd year has been a lot of work. But we’re still here, right?
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This hasn’t been my experience at all. I did pratice Law-cest, but I chose wisely and soberly and we’re still together, as are the few other couples I know who hooked up early in 1L year. The most I’ve ever spent on books is $400, average is about $250 (half.com, people!), my friends are actually my friends, all year long, professors give you an honest and fair projection of what will be on the final, and I work less in law school than I did having a 40-hour a week job. I think I work out to about 30 hours a week on average. Lots of free time. I get bitching about the job market or the job itself, but law school? Law school’s great. Other than the price tag.
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Because I work in public interest (international human rights), I receive assistance from my law school in making my loan payments. And I LOVE my job. I get to meet interesting people from across the globe, travel constantly, and feel like I am making a difference in the world. My work is always interesting and I don’t mind the (admittedly long) hours I spend at work at all, especially since the weekends are almost always completely free to dance away. =)
Law school sucked for the most part, but I will never regret my decision to go. I have some wonderful memories from those three years.
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Jane Doe Reply:
January 5th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
@HumanRightsAtty,
Yay Human Rights Atty! THAT’S what I’m talkin’ about! Good for you!! :-)
Jane Doe
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D Patel Reply:
March 18th, 2009 at 12:57 am
Hello
I would like to know more about the field of international human rights law. How does one get involved in this field and how can I best prepare of a career in this field? I would like to know how you got involved in the field also, since I am having a hard time connecting some of my own interests with a law school education. I give permission to the moderator to share my email address with HumanRightsAtty.
Thank you.
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PublicInterestQuester Reply:
July 9th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
@HumanRightsAtty,
I am interested in pursuing a public interest law career, but have been cautioned of the infeasibility: age limitations (a potential non-traditional student), unreliable loan repayment programs, and fewer job openings – not realistic or practical.
Are you willing to answer some of my questions regarding your experience in public interest (human rights) law? If so, Moderator please provide HumanRightsAtty with my email address.
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[...] lawyer hopefuls are faced with similar challenges on both sides of the Atlantic. As the writer at Legal Geekery helpfully puts [...]
This post is totally fucking credited.
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lol, completely accurate. I just hit the half way point in my program and I shared this with my roomie who had a great laugh (he just finished his first semester). One way I found to get over this uber stressful situation was by talking to attorneys. Even though we do only get one exam per class, I don’t know of any attorneys who were asked their GPA’s as a hiring criteria…but that may just be me.
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This is a little jewel of a list someone tweeted on Twitter. Having been a second career lawyer, then a practicing lawyer for 13 years while teaching as an adjunct at a law school and now onto other endeavors still related to the legal field, I can relate to all the personalities and their experiences showing up here.
A few things I can emphasize based upon my personal and professional experience: know exactly what you are getting into when you go to law school. There is enough information on the web that with some serious research you can get a balanced list of the pros and cons including the job market, personalities, professional satisfaction, the pros and cons of Big Law vs solo/small firm law, trends in practice areas so that you can make an informed decision right down to the impact of student loans on your future.
Talk to others but don’t let the experience of others be the deciding factor. Don’t go to law school because it seems like a good idea. Know that you definitely want what is on the other end of a rather arduous trek through the mountains because you KNOW what you will face on the other end, the challenges and the rewards.
Understand the agenda of any law school will not necessarily be your agenda. Law schools are there to make money, period. Never forget that. This is not to be confused with the agenda or passion of a given law professor. But they answer to their bosses, too.
Once you have passed through the corridors of law school their eye is on the next bunch of paying customers. This is not to say your experience won’t be wonderful or enjoyable and good. You should just always remember the motivation and agenda of the law school.
Do not rely upon career counselors to get you a job (even if you are in the top 10%). Their jobs are on the line, too if they don’t make placements. If you don’t fit their criteria for the ideal candidate, don’t be surprised if they are looking over your shoulder towards the next student coming in to talk with them and ask for their help.
It’s a very different world out there today for the graduating law student. Just know what you are getting into and be sure you want to walk on those coals of fire barefoot to get to ‘the promised land.’
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Hilarity. And the law-cest is completely true.
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This certainly reflects my experience of law school.
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Tenth reason not to go to law school: The administration and professors think it is their duty to “toughen” you up for the real world. Computer crashes the night before a paper is due? You should have planned ahead for that contingency. The statute of limitations doesn’t toll for computer glitches, “Why should we?” they say. You want to talk to a professor about how your answer to an exam was correct and that there was an error? Think of the strictest standard of review you can, then double it. In other words, you’d have a better chance of appealing your grade to the U.S. Supreme Court. Plus, everything must all be done “anonymously.” Without a face to put on a problem, your tiny voice is much easier to brush off. You aren’t prepared for class? Well, you are clearly a moron to be ridiculed. This is all said tongue-in-cheek, as these experiences did in fact “toughen” me for real-world law (except the last one–I was never ridiculed, but quite often others were–I was always to frightened not be be prepared for class and the few times that I wasn’t prepared I somehow managed not to get called on while I cowered nervously hoping I wouldn’t get called on). The truth is, however, that if you aren’t one of the wunderkids whose face is actually remembered by the professors or administration, any problem you have with a professor, grade, or rule at the law school will probably be shunted and you will be churned through the system as another faceless lawschool debtor. That being said, I love my job. I just hated law school.
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I am a 1L and I just finished my first semester of Law School and this BLOG WAS RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!!
Couldn’t have been better said.
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M Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
@On the money, I’m working on a documentary and I’m interested in the opinion you expressed above. Would you mind shooting me an e-mail so I can pick your brain? Thanks! mdesir[@]gmail[.]com (no brackets).
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I would like to add a few more reasons not to attend law school.
1. Excruciating boredom…Private practice as a clerk or young associate is rarely an intellectual journey; it’s largely a test of how long you can sit in your chair, cut and paste, and bill, bill, bill.
2. The legal field is cut throat…You have to spend tons of time schmoozing during law school and after to get a decent job. Even after all the schmoozing, you might still end up with a hot head boss and little job security. In the legal field it’s not uncommon for people to be repeatedly threatened with termination &/or fired on a whim (or post it note).
3. Not a good investment…You will probably make less $ as a law clerk and attorney than if you had continued in your current profession (plus at least $100k in student loan debt that increases every year). If you compare what would be your “hourly rate” it’s even more depressing.
4. Holidays and vacations are fun…They don’t really exist in the context of a billable year. A holiday or vacation typically = working weekends and late nights to make up the billable time.
5. The law-cest continues far past graduation…most legal communities are small.
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@Jane Doe:
Rapport is spelled “rapport”.
It is not spelled “repoire”.
“Rainmaking” (unless you literally know how to make it rain) is not going to be even half as impressive as good grades are. On the other hand, if you want to go into sales, then you may be onto something.
@depressing posters:
Wow, depressing as heck. My applications are in as we speak, and I am really starting to rethink this whole venture.
Since it sounds like even attending a mid to low level tier 1 law school may be ugly (after graduation), I’m starting to worry.
I wonder if I’m better off going to a tier 2 school that is ranked within the top 10 for a particular discipline. I have my eyes on a school ranked #6 with Intellectual Property law that’s ranked in the second tier.
I’m also beginning to think that, if my career opportunities are in no way guaranteed, even with a near-genius to genius IQ and hard work at a tier 1 (let alone tier 2) school, then there is very good reason to consider taking a full or nearly full ride at a tier 2 or tier 3 school rather than running $30,000 to $40,000 debt per year.
That way, I’ll have a degree from a half-decent school with excellent grades and a high class-rank AND low debt. A top 5% to 10% class-rank from a mediocre school (tier 2 or 3) with law review and / or other worthwhile activities could take me pretty far. And with low debt, even if my law degree does very little for me, I’ll be no worse off than if I hadn’t bothered in the first place.
What say you?
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Joshua Auriemma Reply:
January 9th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
@Justin, I think that’s more or less a half-decent strategy. Just remember that you’re going to be surprised no matter where you go by some of your classmates, so try to factor that in somehow. There is a guy in my year, for instance, that probably would have had a decent shot at top 5% at HLS, but he decided to stay around here for “family reasons.” There are always a few of those.
Another thing to keep in mind is where you’d like to eventually practice. A lot of interviewers at biglaw have told me that they hate when someone doesn’t have a preference. After you decide more or less where you want to end up, check out those regional schools. Here’s a good example of why this is important — I’m at Penn State, currently ranked at 77 according to US News (though I wouldn’t be surprised by a jump of 10+ positions this year). If I really wanted to end up in Boston, I would have been much better off going to Suffolk, a Tier 3 school (it was actually Tier 4 when I accepted PSU’s offer). Why? Mostly because Suffolk has been around for a while and has people planted at every Boston firm and at all levels of state government.
That said, don’t overlook the rankings with respect to specialty either. I’m actually an IP guy, and I definitely didn’t do as much research with respect to IP opportunities as I should have. I don’t know that it’ll help you get an offer, so much as you’ll probably have more and better opportunities to take better classes and network at a school with a strong IP focus.
To be honest though, if I had to give one single piece of advice to 0L’s, it would be: if you can’t get into a top 14 school, forget just about everything else and minimize your debt.
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Jane Doe Reply:
January 17th, 2009 at 1:23 am
@Justin,
Wow. Of all the posts on here, you honed in on mine, only to point out a spelling error and to speak on a topic of which you quite literally know nothing (what various hiring attorneys look for), while virtually ignoring all other information in mine or other informative posts, (for instance how unnecessary/inappropriate it is to drop an F bomb in a professional forum. So basically, you insulted someone you don’t know with absolutely nothing to gain (judgmental, insecure), and then went on to talk solely about yourself, and what the best course of action is for your ‘near-genious’ options (self-centered, insecure).
Definitely not encouraging in terms of the application a practical analytical ability. Ignoring the facts and pushing aside the relevance of valid information is probably not the right foot to get off on with regard to law school. Not to mention that if a client does not trust you, you’re fired. If they perceive one iota of self interest at their expense, you’re gone.
Without going into too much detail, grades are ‘impressive’ your first year or two out of law school. After that it is your performance. The attorneys that are let go first when firms cut back are the ones that are an outgoing check only, and not an incoming check – in other words – the rainmakers stay, and no matter WHAT your GPA was in Law School, if I am bringing in enough money to pay for the senior partners yacht, and you are editing for spelling errors and throwing your ‘IQ’ around, I’m staying, and you’re going. Racking up billable hours is NOT the same as bringing the CLIENTS that will PAY for ALL the billable hours for a BUNCH of attorneys, say, half the IP department. Unfortunately, ability to develop “rapport” and intellect don’t often meet.
Not that I have any intention to work at a big firm – which I am quite certain I was clear about.
Regarding grades. While your opinion may apply to a very small number of people that complete law school and subsequently pass a bar exam, most – that is right – MOST law students will not fall into this category that you speak of – where grades and/or law review alone get them a job. Sure, it opens some doors in terms of jobs/internships, etc., that you can APPLY for, but after your first year or so out there in the field, nobody cares. Well, maybe a few – and I suspect when you get into the field you would fall into that category.
Given your uncontrollable urge to condescend to someone you don’t know and waive around flags like “IQ” as well as asserting opinions about topics for which you possess no knowledge of nor practical experience with (in addition to the fact that you fail to provide any references worthy of merit aside from the merit you evidently credit your ego/opinion with), I highly doubt that you will have the requisite social skills to be a ‘rainmaker’ as it were. You clearly put no value on that skill in terms of it being an aspect of your career that needs as much, if not MORE grooming than your intellect. Get back to me in 10-15 years after law school and let me know how that works out for you.
While I have no statistics on hand immediately regarding the percentage of law students that gain employment after law school, I can, with a reasonable certainty gather that it’s not only the students in the top 10% of the top 14 law schools that find work. (or any unreasonable calculation that emphasizes grades over balance)
Some of us overcome obstacles of huge magnitude to be here. It sounds like you could fall into the category of ‘people I refuse to compete with in an area of my profession that will only matter for a year or two after graduation’. Keep in mind, law school is crawling with people that have “near-genius” if not ACTUAL genius IQ’s. Law school is where the smart kids go, and the level of competition is like none you have never known.
To be at about the middle of my class (where our attrition rate hit 30%), the single mother of a child with special needs, and a cancer survivor with no living relatives to speak while involved in the upper levels of leadership is an accomplishment that trumps ‘IQ’ alone any day. I am a problem solver, obstacles are practically nothing for me, and I can take something to the mat that most people just can’t be bothered with (but means something to someone).
Law school is gonna teach you a bunch of rules. So you’ll be a ‘rule-knower’ when you get out. Basically, that is the point of law school. To hammer you with rules for three years, teach you how to think about applying them and then testing you for a couple of days to make sure you know them. And make you feel really, really stupid. If you let academia define you.
Law school WILL NOT teach you how to solve problems. Law school will teach how to answer questions the way that the professor would like you to, which sometimes, may be relevant to practical life, but mostly consists of theories that professors windbag at you, and that you never see or hear of again. “Problem Solving” is a skill you must develop on your own, and paramount to the successful practice of law.
And for the record, I am the closest thing to “Rainmaker” as you define it that you’ll ever run across. Meaning, if my client hired me to make rain, I will take it to the mat, and if there is even the slightest, most remote chance that rain could be made, I WILL FIND IT. And there is a very strong likelihood that anyone who knows me at this point will agree, and if you ever came to our campus and asked for someone here that could help you make rain, you probably would not get many “you’re a crazy person” looks. They’ll point you to my office and say: “If it’s possible – she’ll find a way”
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WhoCares Reply:
February 8th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
@Justin,
Wow. That wasn’t very nice. Who asked for the spelling lesson, anyway? You’re not even in law school, so what the heck do you know? I wonder what makes you think you’re even in the position to be so condescending to Jane Doe.
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[...] thought while reading 9 REasons Not to Attend Law School”: Lawyers who regret and complain about choosing to become lawyers are a little like addicts [...]
[...] 9 Reasons Not to Attend Law School All true, and yet I remain undeterred.Filed Under [lawschool ] [...]
A few things-
Big Law is miserable, everyone knows this. Making arguments based on the premise that all lawyers go to work for big firms doesn’t hold true for many people.
If you can get a good LSAT & get into a highly ranked school, you will have tons of options, and you will also likely have a loan forgiveness program that allows you to do something other than whore yourself out to the highest bidder. The LSAT is an extremely learnable test, and most people don’t spend enough time studying for it.
Finally, law is by the far the most interesting discipline I’ve ever studied. Law school has greatly enhanced my understanding of the world we live in. We live in a society of ease and instant gratification, so its inevitable that people will rally against an experience that forces them to push themselves. Get into the best school you can, stay away from Big Law, and law school can be a really enjoyable experience.
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[...] generally entertaining site for young legal professionals and law students) recently published an article entitled “9 Reasons Not to Attend Law School“. It explains, for those of you who may [...]
i just finished my first semester at a law school ranked at the 100 mark. i did pretty decent… top 40th %ile. my total debt will be about $170k without interest. i have no interest in biglaw, although would like to do it if I could get it just to pay off the loans. all i want to do is be a public defender, which i think i have a passion for. no matter where i transfer to, the debt will still be at least 150k. im also worried about the bar exam for my state which is notoriously difficult, so that may take 1 or 2 or maybe 3 times to pass it. i am generally not a good test taker… low lsat. i do like the material in law school and i do want to stay. but i’m terrified by the debt, and the interest that will accumulate while im taking the bar. and also postponing all those years of my life. my alternative is to go back to my previous profession (engineering)… which I was good at, but was getting bored of, and also possibly do law school part-time.
overall, it is the debt that is really bringing me down and i just don’t know if i want to risk my entire life and welfare on the legal profession and to be a PD. just dont know…
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Improvilaw Reply:
September 17th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
@bs, When you become a public defender, you are eligible for Income Based Repayment (starting July 1, 2009) on your debt. In my case, with $40K income and $120K in debt, monthly paymnets using Income Based Repayment will be only $310 a month (instead of $1,140 under the standard plan).
After 10 years as a public defender, the government will forgive your loans.
It’s called the College Cost Reduction and Access Act. More info can be found by going on my blog. Just comment and I can email you some info.
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I love this 9 reason …post. Its informative, honest, and funny)
As a 0L starting law school in August 09, I find this the 9 reason not to attend law school informative and amusing at the same time. I remember when I first started reading on the Law school culture a couple of years ago and these kind of posts were making me nervous. But after doing many many reasearch and hearing all the ‘horror’ stories about law school, now I just cant help it but to smirk when I read these kind of posts. I am sure Law school will be one of the hardest things I will go through in my life. However, at this point I am almost anxious to meet this beast at this point.
Law school maybe too hard? so what, I dont need a percentage or a letter grade to tell me what I am worth. All I am concerned about going to law school is being a competent lawyer. I am more concerned about not becoming an inadequate lawyer that ruins his/her clients life as a result of being inadequate (as I have witnessed it happen to friends many times). So yes I may or may not be the genious in your class. I may or may not be in the top percent of the class. But I do know that I will read every assignment and will give my all to understand the material because I dread of becoming that “inadequate” lawyer. Some cynics will say “well everyone is going to work hard” or “sure you will say that now, but you have no idea what you getting your self into”. They may be right, but it doesnot mean I will learn from my mistakes. I see the occupation of becoming a lawyer as a big responsiblity that I will put my all into not to brag about my class grades, not to get that big $$ or Big job at a big law firm. Just because I will have the lives and dreams of other people on my hand. That is a trust more noble and rewarding that anything I can think of.
Lawyers are miserable? as opposed to what? What is more miserable and depressing to me is working at a job where you have no motivation or care for. Clocking in 40hrs a week just waiting for a pay check. With a law degree I can purse diverse avenues while having the autonomy to make decision about my life/career.
I am sure we are all wired in different ways, and expect different things out of life. To some what I just said might seem naive, to some insperational, and to some idiotic. But my point is it depends on the individual. If you take any career for the wrong reasons you are going to miserable. Its ironic because I read a lot of threads by law students/lawyers, it is amazing despite what I hear they are always helpful informative towards one another. So to those thinking about law school and get discouraged with other people’s depressing comments, just remember if you chose law school for what is the right reasons “for you”, then you will be fine.
To those who are giving the pros and cons of law school by giving an honest assesment of thier experience (leaving out thier own insecurities and other personal/emotional issues), I am greatful to you guys and LOVE READING your inputs as I get read to meet this “beast” so it can kick my ass for 3 years lol.
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[...] A funny take on why you should not go to law school. Over half of these apply to me. This is my favorite reason: [...]
I seriously suspect that all the lawyers and law students who post on blogs/sites like this spout horror stories and advise against going to law school because they want less market competition. It’s kind of like hiding library books and misleading fellow students.
From what I’ve read here and heard about practicing lawyers I wouldn’t put it past any of you. Medical doctors don’t bitch about their profession and dissuade students as much as you. Go figure.
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Joshua Auriemma Reply:
May 18th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Let me guess: you base this hypothesis on a gut feeling. Maybe you *should* go to law school. Most 1Ls think they know everything too.
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This post was hysterical and though intended to be “funny” it’s actually factual in most cases – but life IS funny, right? right?? RIGHT???
By the way – I love this site!!
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So you’re reading these posts and are thinking: “I’m smarter than these bozos who are trying to talk me out of being a lawyer; I’m not like them; I’ll make it.” YOU ARE DEAD WRONG. Before I started law school, I can’t tell you how many law students and attorneys told me to stay away from the practice of law. I thought that they were probably losers, just venting their frustrations over their self-created failures. The following is my story, showing that these “losers” were right all along.
I graduated at the top 5% of my undergraduate class with a degree in finance from an elite undergraduate program. I had a job at a major financial company making $60K + bonuses fresh out of college, with no law-school debt (mind you that I chose not to go into ibanking, in which case I’d be making $120K + bonuses). Then I did something really stupid. I ignored the advice of all those people who warned me: I quit my job, took the LSAT and subsequently entered law school because I genuinely wanted to practice law, specifically, corporate law. After my first year, I scored in the top 25% of my class, which full of students that were just as smart, or smarter, than me. For the first time in my life, I was humbled. I was unable to get a big firm job – the only place to practice corporate law – through OCI because there weren’t that many employers around in this market. Now I’m working in a small firm, making $18 per hour. I’d be lucky right now to land a legal job paying me $60-$70K per year. I had high hopes of practicing corporate law; now I’m writing motions in limine for a personal injury firm. I’m working for freakin ambulance chasers.
I thought about cutting my losses by quitting law school and going back to finance. However, I can’t go back to the company I deserted. And during my interviews with other companies, the interviewers always pointed to the fact I picked law over finance, and that they think I would probably jump ship again and go back to practicing law, and, not surprisingly, I never get the job, even those that I’m overqualified for. My new tactic is to avoid any mention of my law school experience (after paying $100 grand for it up until now). Can you imagine taking something like law school off your resume? How do I explain a 2-year gap? I’m still thinking about it.
Long story short: LISTEN TO US; DON’T GO TO LAW SCHOOL UNLESS YOU WANT TO PROSTITUTE YOURSELF AND WILL DO ANYTHING FOR MONEY; YOU PROBABLY WON’T GO INTO THE LEGAL FIELD YOU TRULY WANT AND WILL END UP DO SOMETHING COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO YOUR EXPECTATIONS JUST TO PAY YOUR BILLS.
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Evan Reply:
July 27th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
@Unhappy 3L,
I’m having similar concerns after my first year. What really seems funny to me is how these schools want to charge you through the nose, then your 1L profs go around talking to you about ETHICS and such.
If there was really a desire for new attorneys to do ‘good” work, such as public interest law, things would be a bit different. Instead, most LRAP and other compensatory programs suck because they either have income limits that are too low, or they do things such as including a spouse’s income, but many students only figure this out after its too late and the bill has come due.
I’m not saying that having a lot of student loans should allow you act unscrupulously, but charging 20K a semester for an education then yapping about ethics just smells like hypocrisy to me.
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M Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
@Evan, I’m working on a documentary and I’m interested in the opinion you expressed above. Would you mind shooting me an e-mail so I can pick your brain? Thanks! mdesir[@]gmail[.]com (no brackets).
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M Reply:
November 27th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
@Unhappy 3L, I’m working on a documentary and I’m interested in the opinion you expressed above. Would you mind shooting me an e-mail so I can pick your brain? Thanks! mdesir[@]gmail[.]com (no brackets).
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this made me wnat to go to law school
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K. Reply:
March 1st, 2010 at 6:41 pm
@mike,
It did the same for me. I feel like I need this kind of monumental challenge to get me off my butt and out of my complacent rut.
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Click here if interested…
Good job narrowing down all the information….
Joshua,
Just completed my 1L year, and can totally relate to your list. Am personally having doubts as to whether to continue on – the terrible job market, the ever increasing debt-load, and my own modestly respectable GPA (just missed a cumulative B+, and yes I’m still blaming it on the curve), make me wonder whether this is really worth it.
My biggest disappointment is how much you are expected to do outside of school – moot court, law review, internships, and the other things Joshua mentioned. If you enjoy even a little moderation in your life, I would strongly consider another career choice.
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I have retired from government with 27 years of service. For the past 30 years I have had a stong desire to attend law school. To start a second career as a lawyer. After much research and reading I have determined to start a second career as a Paralegal. To attend an ABA Approved community course.
The cost for the whole program is about $6000.00. From there to take the NALA test to become a Certified Paralegal. Followed by the on-line Advanced Course as a Social Security Disability Specialist. With the final outcome to be appointed as a Non-Attorney Representative for Social Security Disability clients.
After reading articles, books and speaking with attorneys, who teach paralegal classes, that everything said in the above articles are true. Because of student debt. Because of the job market for lawyers. Because of the slim chance of making it in the legal profession. All things considered, I have decided not to be a lawyer.
In retirement, I can work full or part-time as a parelegal. Or to specialize in a given area such as Social Security Disability. I have always want to study the law. But to be a law student, lawyer, or attorney can be to big of a moutain to climb. I respect though individuals who have choosen this field of study.
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Will Reply:
August 16th, 2009 at 11:45 pm
@Charles,
Thank you for your comments. I’ll be completing an AS in paralegal studies in the Spring of 2010; and have been contemplating going on to law school. I was thinking it may be a better use of my skill-set learned over 10 years of military service and 15 years in business.
As I’m over 40, the debt vs. income ratio out of law school seems formidable – as well as 4 more years of substandard earnings while in school.
The path you laid out for yourself is encouraging. It allows you some autonomy while you help people using all your talent.
All the best to you and the other contributors to this post in all your present and future endeavors.
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Improvilaw Reply:
September 17th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
@Will, I made more money as a paralegal (and office Manager) of a 4 attorney firm than I will as a public interest attorney.
You are making the right decision.
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Change law school to med school and it’s exactly the same!
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Regarding debt: I agree with the above posts about keeping debt down, but going part time is not possible for many. It costs more in tuition to finish in 4 years (or more) instead of 3. You also miss out on an extra year of income to pay off that debt.
As for loans: The College Cost Reduction and Access Act (CCRAA) provides for Income Based Repayment (IBR) and Loan Forgiveness (for gov’t and public interest/non-profit lawyers) after 10 years of IBR Payments.
Go to the Equal Justice Works website for more information.
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Thank for your preciouse time in coming up with this post. Can you provide more information on this topic? I’ve already subscribed to your post via Google News Reader to let me read them as soon as possible.
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Just came across this article from another one of your posts. So funny and true! The legal field is simply over-saturated, but I keep on trucking trying to find my way.
This post is right on point and has great comments as well. Nice job!
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LOL LOL LOL. I get the feeling law schools and law practice are the same every where around the globe. 3 years out of law school, 2 years since the bar exams (most grueling exam here in the Philippines), but I couldn’t shake off the trauma that was law school. Education is very cheap here, including law school (for most schools), and the promise of a way, way better future have attracted hordes and hordes of people to law schools all over our country. If only I could tell them (every single one of them) exactly what you have in your blog…Could save them their time, and money, and sweat and tears…
LOL LOL LOL
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I found your blog on google and read a few of your other posts. I just added you to my Google News Reader. Keep up the good work Look forward to reading more from you in the future.
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I found this post on Google while researching the never-ending debate of whether someone should attend law school. At the moment I have a great job, completely outside of the legal field, which allows me to travel/live abroad and do something which I enjoy. It’s not the most well paying profession, but that’s not the reason for considering law school. I know what you’re thinking…why make a change if I enjoy what I do? Since finishing my undergraduate studies, almost a decade ago, I’ve been on the fence about going. I have a number of friends and clients who learn about my background, the 7 languages I speak and the fact that I am tossing the law school idea around, who send me weekly emails telling me to change my profession. I get the constant, “Umm, why are you working in this industry?” question thrown in my face and it’s been haunting me for quite some time.
Again, it’s not about the money, but about doing something greater with my life (Whatever greater may mean). That being said, I can definitely do without the headaches and possible ulcers. Any thoughts on this?
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Well, I’m back. For all the talking about law school I’ve done: I will sound the warning bells loud and clear. Don’t go. And if you go, don’t be afraid to quit.
I made it half way.
And I quit.
I never met so many sociopaths in one place, I never witnessed so much categorical unfairness and never fell victim to so much intentional ill will all at once.
In a stroke of irony, and despite criticism received from a previous poster, I now edit and write essays for those of you who want to take the plunge and apply to grad school.
I’m moving to Costa Rica in a few months, and I no longer feel like having a heart attack every other day.
Life’s full of choices, and Law School is not a good one for physical or emotional health. But if you must go, I sure can help you write one heck of an essay for it. ;-)
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Jane Doe, it saddens me that you are leaving law school. But I know you are making the best decsion for you and your family. Your post was very insightful. I thank you for you wisdom and courage to speak you mind.I am currently at a tier 3 law school and I love the experience that I am receiving. Although I agree with most of the posts on why not to go lawschool, I believe that each inndividual will have a different experience and should just “CONSIDER” what other have to say about their experience. I really believe that lawschools should do a better job at preparing students to own their own law office right out of lawschool. We have to be honest at the current job perspective(which is not dreadful). I wish all of you luck and success in whichever career path you choose.
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Alright so I have read down all the comments and I would like some feedback on a question from the current lawyers: I am a Bio Major and want to go to law school to get into patent/copy. law. I have worked in the industry as a chemist for last three years and I don’t think I will be happy working as a scientist, do you think law might be a good thing to look into? I like the prospect of taking my science knowledge and having to apply it to law. I guess I eventually want to work for the government and help in legislation discussion and so on…anyone got any constructive comments/advice about this? Thanks
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Joshua Auriemma Reply:
January 14th, 2010 at 9:33 am
@Hopeless scientist, I’m just a lowly 3L, but I do have a lot of experience interviewing for biglaw patent jobs.
I’ve been told by numerous biglaw firms that they’re tending to shy away from patent prosecution. For me, this isn’t a big deal because I’m interested in litigation, but it will be a factor to consider if you want a biglaw job and want to prosecute.
If you do want to prosecute, your chemistry background will definitely make you more attractive then me (my background is in math/physics). Chemistry is a big patent industry, so you wouldn’t have the problem of being patent eligible but having firms not know which group to put you in.
All that said, my advice is that if you can’t get into a top 14 school, chances are you are going to make less money than you otherwise would as a chemist for quite some time. It’s even possible that you could never reach the earning potential that you have right now.
Yes, you have a skill set that is more useful than not having it, but I don’t know that it opens enough doors in and of itself to make law school a worthwhile investment right now.
That said, if you aren’t in it for the money but don’t want to be a scientist, I’d say law school is a good option. We’re already acclimated to the work ethic, so that part is easy. And when you do work in the area, you get to become an “expert for a day” in tons of different scientific areas. In my opinion, that’s a lot more fun than becoming the go-to guy for femtosecond lasers.
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It seems to me as I read through here that there are limited postings of “I LOVE being a lawyer” and a plethora of “Run as fast as you can the other direction, girl!” sentiments, which for me begs the questions why go through it? Is law school truly the hell y’all have described? And if it isn’t hell when going through it, is the job market/job search hell?
I have a job which is okay, where I make a good salary, but I am, as the name states, Bored Beyond Belief. I work with attorneys and they always seemed to have interesting stories and interesting jobs. I need a challenge and I like the idea that laws that were written 200 years ago are still being applied in new and interesting ways today (4th Amendment, etc.). I like the idea of working with case facts and applying those facts to the elements of a statute. Is the PRACTICE of law like that or am I off living in “The Paper Chase” la-la land?
So the question I have for all the bloggers/posters, the disenchanted and, apparently, clinically depressed in some cases, attorneys, would you do it again? Any value at all to it? I am shamelessly hedging my bets here, I don’t want to quit a job that is okay with a good salary to go to one that is hell on earth. Thoughts, advise, comments, etc. are all welcome and appreciated. I also accept full responsibility for any spelling errors, grammatical misuses, or otherwise unacceptable use of the English language in this post.
Humbly submitted….
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i relly dpnt want to go to school tomorrow! :@
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Thanks for posting this article. I myself have never considered law school, but many of my friends are currently looking at law school and grad school as a safe haven against this recession. I will email them this link, because based on my own research, law school is a $150,000 waste of time.
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I graduated a little bit more than a year ago with a liberal arts degree in political science and psychology from a top tier school. Panic ensued when I realized that I might not be able to get a well-paying and meaningful job. I agree that there is a good percentage of people who go to law school or grad school right after college solely because they feel lost and that pursuing another degree felt safer than taking a gamble and exploring a little. For a period of time I thought about going to law school, but I am glad that I decided to take another path. Going to law school does not guarantee a big paycheck! It’s only financially worth it to go to law school if you get into the Big 14. My friend who has an engineering degree and went to law school at NYU just wrote a guest post about why law school is not the right choice for most liberal arts degree graduates at http://catwchang.com/?p=234
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